Re: Why I Wouldn’t Have Signed Matt Cain

作者: hunterqiji (hunter)   2012-04-03 09:38:20
翻譯一下關鍵部分
※ 引述《abc12812 ()》之銘言:
: http://tinyurl.com/7wykqlv
: A couple of hours ago, the Giants announced that they reached an agreement
: with Matt Cain on a five year deal worth just over $110 million. Wendy Thurm
: has already recapped the contract and why this is probably fair market value
: for a quality pitcher with no health problems headed into his age 27 season.
: And, she’s probably right – if the Giants wanted to keep Cain, they weren’
: t going to be able to do it for less than this. This isn’t a situation where
: they just overpaid irrationally. Their options were either to sign him for
: this price or watch him get more money from another team next winter. They
: chose the former.
老人和Cain達成超過$110M的新合約。事實上﹐巨人基本不可能以更低的約綁住Cain.
其實這不是非理性的overpay, 他們要麼現在簽﹐要不下個冬天看他以更高的價格簽約
其他球隊。老人選擇了前者﹐但我(作者)寧願選擇後者。
: I would have chosen the latter.
: Matt Cain is a good pitcher. How good he’d perform in another set of
: circumstances – different ballpark, different division, different pitching
: coach, etc… – isn’t quite as well determined, but we’ve got a pretty good
: idea that Cain is good at preventing runs in the context he’s currently in.
: Over the last six years, he’s thrown 1,300 innings and posted an ERA- of 80,
: meaning that he prevented runs at a rate of 20 percent above average.
: Quantity and quality is a good package. It just doesn’t predict future
: success as well as you might think.
: Starting in 2002, here are some rolling six year windows where pitchers threw
: at least 1,000 innings, the examples of pitchers around Cain’s age that
: performed in a similar manner, and how they did going forward.
: 2002-2007
: Carlos Zambrano, ages 21-26: 1,186 IP, 75 ERA-, 87 FIP-, 92 xFIP-
: While Cain has better command than Zambrano, both got significantly better
: results than their BB/K/GB rates would have suggested for a long period of
: time. Like Cain, Zambrano was extremely durable, and had shouldered heavy
: workloads while still taking the mound every five days. However, 2007 was the
: last year that Zambrano managed 200 innings in a season, and he’s been a
: significant disappointment ever since.
: Jake Peavy, ages 21-26: 1,087 IP, 83 ERA-, 86 FIP-, 82 xFIP-
: Peavy and Cain have a lot in common. Lots of success in pitchers parks in the
: NL West, got better as they aged, and showed a strong track record heading
: into their age 27 seasons. 2007 was Peavy’s best year, and marked the third
: consecutive year he’d topped the 200 inning level. He hasn’t gotten over
: 174 since, struggling with both health issues and diminished performance.
: Mark Buehrle, ages 23-28: 1,357 IP, 83 ERA-, 91 FIP-, 95 xFIP-
: Finally, some good news. Buehrle’s another guy who has consistently beat his
: peripherals and showed extreme durability early in his career. That hasn’t
: changed at all in the last four years, as he’s still the exact same 200
: inning workhorse he’s always been.
: 2003-2008
: CC Sabathia, ages 22-27: 1,269 IP, 78 ERA-, 80 FIP-, 84 xFIP-
: Sabathia was another young workhorse who has managed to both stay healthy and
: stay excellent, but it’s worth noting that he succeeded with a more
: traditional skillset of limiting walks and getting a ton of strikeouts. He’s
: always been excellent at the three things a pitcher has the most control
: over, so for him, it was more of a question of staying healthy rather than
: sustaining abnormal run prevention skills. He stayed healthy and has been
: fantastic since.
: Josh Beckett, ages 23-28: 1,057 IP, 86 ERA-, 80 FIP-, 82 xFIP-
: Beckett couldn’t match Cain’s track record for health and durability, but
: he was one of the best pitchers in baseball in his mid-20s, and strung
: together four consecutive seasons with at least 175 innings pitched. Yet, his
: three years since have brought declined in performance and durability, and he
: ’s regressed somewhat from his prior form.
: John Lackey, ages 24-29: 1,216 IP, 86 ERA-, 88 FIP-, 90 xFIP-
: Like Cain, Lackey’s value was built through quantity rather than just sheer
: dominance, and he provided the Angels with a long run of solid but
: unspectacular performances. His last three years have been a weird mix of
: good, bad, and ugly, and now he’s going to spend the 2012 season rehabbing
: from Tommy John surgery.
: Brandon Webb, ages 24-29: 1,315 IP, 71 ERA-, 75 FIP-, 75 xFIP-
: Webb was the total package, combining elite performance with the ability to
: throw 200 innings year in and year out. He was in the running for the title
: of the best pitcher in baseball. Then, he blew out his arm, and he’s thrown
: just four innings in the Major Leagues over the last three years. His career,
: at this point, appears to be over.
: 2004-2009
: Dan Haren, ages 23-28: 1,154 IP, 80 ERA-, 82 FIP-, 81 xFIP-
: Another success story, and another guy with a lot of similarities to Cain –
: extreme durability, began as more of a good innings eater, and then steadily
: improved into a legitimate frontline guy. He’s sustained his excellence even
: after moving back to the American League, but like Sabathia, it’s been built
: on a foundation of low walks and high strikeouts.
: These eight guys represent a pretty mixed bag of future performance after
: being identified as durable, quality starters early in their careers. Haren,
: Sabathia, and Buehrle all show that Cain isn’t destined to turn into a
: pumpkin, but Zambrano, Peavy, Webb, Lackey, and Beckett suggest that past
: success doesn’t guarantee future success either.
以上列舉了8投手的很多方面﹐耐久力﹐優質先發等等。Haren,CC,Buehrle, 表明Cain不是
注定成為南瓜(應該是假貨的寓意)﹐但大Z,Peavy, Webb, 發球機﹐北極則暗示過去的好
成績並不能保証未來的成功。
: In reality, Cain’s future is something of a coin flip. He may or may not
: stay healthy. He may or may not continue to prevent hits on balls in play.
: History is littered with similar pitchers who have gone either way, and when
: you’re betting $100+ million on a guy, you should get better than 50-50 odds
: that he’ll continue to perform reasonably well going forward.
事實上﹐Cain的未來成功的概率就像扔硬幣一樣﹐50-50. 但球隊在你身上投資$100+m,你
應該比50%成功可能更好才對。
: At $22 million per year over the next five years, Matt Cain essentially needs
: to avoid all problems and continue to pitch as well as he has previously. He
: might do just that, but there’s a real risk that his arm is going to fall or
: that his performance will head the wrong way sooner than later. There’s just
: too much risk here for a team like the Giants to take on this kind of
: contract, especially with so many other pressing needs in the organization.
每年$22m﹐Cain需要表現的和過去一樣好﹐但卻是有一定的風險他的手臂不行了。
: The Giants have a built-in pitching factory with AT&T Park and Dave Righetti
: in place, and given that they’ve had a lot of success maximizing the returns
: they get on importing pitchers from other organizations, they’re in a unique
: position to avoid paying market rates for pitching and instead invest that
: capital in getting some quality position players instead. It might not have
: been the popular thing to do, but letting Cain walk at the end of the year
: and throwing $22 million at a guy who swings the bat for a living may have
: been a better use of fund.
老人處在一個獨特的位置, 可以避免用市場價簽下一個投手而簽一些其他位置的優秀球
員。也許讓Cain在賽季末離開﹐而用$22m去簽下其他打者才是更好的利用球隊的資金。
作者: nolander (自己國家自己救)   2012-04-03 09:41:00
哪裡有說他手臂不行了?
作者: hunterqiji (hunter)   2012-04-03 09:42:00
there’s a real risk that his arm is going to fall
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2012-04-03 09:45:00
要簽長約每條手臂都嘛有壞掉的風險 但是以他連續5年200IP的成績 講價錢的時候談這個只會被打槍吧
作者: didilala (強風吹拂)   2012-04-03 09:46:00
我還是覺得這各約值得.CAIN真的很穩定.在各隊也都是前2號
作者: noahlin (該怎麼說呢)   2012-04-03 09:50:00
真的進FA也很難簽到比22M更高的價碼了吧...
作者: notmuchmoney (真的不錯....)   2012-04-03 09:51:00
前2號要花到22M來綁 不一定值得...
作者: Alexander13 (Alex)   2012-04-03 09:52:00
可惜歷年勝場數比較悲情 不然會更搶手
作者: vg175 (非典型廢言)   2012-04-03 09:53:00
更新消息,最後一年選擇權如果Cain因手肘或肩膀傷勢進入DL並
作者: vg175 (非典型廢言)   2012-04-03 09:54:00
結束球季,選擇權將不被執行
作者: JakeMcGee (Jake McGee)   2012-04-03 10:05:00
there's a real risk那句話不是說Cain的手臂不行
作者: JakeMcGee (Jake McGee)   2012-04-03 10:06:00
只是說投下每年22M 是很有風險的 這是綁長約必然要承擔
作者: JakeMcGee (Jake McGee)   2012-04-03 10:07:00
因為作者是以"你現在沒傷 不代表以後都沒傷"的角度來看
作者: armyguy (十年後的大居)   2012-04-03 10:13:00
你現在沒傷 不代表以後都沒傷這個論點真是毫無意義,對每個
作者: armyguy (十年後的大居)   2012-04-03 10:14:00
人都嘛一樣,誰知道將來的事,投資一定有風險,但以cain連5年
作者: armyguy (十年後的大居)   2012-04-03 10:15:00
200IP,平均ERA+125以上等級,5年後也只是31歲來說我覺得很
作者: armyguy (十年後的大居)   2012-04-03 10:17:00
合理,至於每年平均22M就見人見智,其實他的成績絕對可當1號
作者: chiz2 (chiz2)   2012-04-03 10:21:00
老人要擔心的是怎麼讓打線多打幾分出來,你看那精美的林盲腸
作者: chiz2 (chiz2)   2012-04-03 10:22:00
去年莫名其妙吞了多少敗
作者: taiwanrules (taiwanrules)   2012-04-03 10:22:00
Cain 應該是整聯盟前15的投手 放到很多隊都可以當ACE
作者: taiwanrules (taiwanrules)   2012-04-03 10:24:00
如果要像作者這樣評論 那只能一年一簽 問題是簽的下嗎
作者: danny789 (這其中一定有什麼誤會)   2012-04-03 10:28:00
"你現在沒傷 不代表以後都沒傷"=沒說
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 10:31:00
其實每個人並不一樣。
作者: maikxz (超級痛痛人)   2012-04-03 10:32:00
簽約然後說以後會傷 是件很奇怪的事 那大家都一年一簽就好可以照過往評估他是不是風險高的人來決定要給多大的約
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 10:33:00
有些人你就是知道他簽長的風險會更大,譬如發球機。但是Cain簽常約反而會覺得還好。*長
作者: maikxz (超級痛痛人)   2012-04-03 10:34:00
對 能夠批評的就是這種約 是一個能拿出 ACE 身手 過往又沒
作者: maikxz (超級痛痛人)   2012-04-03 10:37:00
有傷痛 又怎能預測他會受傷
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 10:37:00
而且這種例子其實很多阿,看看光芒抓誰放誰都可尋。
作者: ckevint (Can't live w/o music)   2012-04-03 10:40:00
又來了 講到投手必提的隊伍是吧 呵呵
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 10:43:00
其實就算是發球姬也有預料他會傷肘才有附帶條件。
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 10:44:00
而且簽約前的傷病史跟年紀也會是評估條件。
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 10:45:00
並不是說他一定機率這就是廢話,這有高有低不是嘛?
作者: maikxz (超級痛痛人)   2012-04-03 10:56:00
發球姬我個人是覺得是長度問題 17M 倒還好
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2012-04-03 11:35:00
所以發球機的約才有個很特殊的條款啊
作者: eon4 (崩星咆哮砲)   2012-04-03 11:39:00
要用長約綁球員一定要冒點風險啊 況且Matt這幾年貢獻約25 WAR也不過拿16M而已 (by B-R)
作者: abc12812   2012-04-03 11:47:00
發球基離隊前兩年都有肘傷困擾,和Cain不能比吧
作者: jimmihg (TheKing)   2012-04-03 12:01:00
Cain近年無傷病疑慮,又有近ACE的成績,拿這約不過份吧?
作者: ajdjg   2012-04-03 13:00:00
推發球機…哈哈
作者: yeng1217 (σ`∀′) ゚∀゚)σ)   2012-04-03 13:12:00
這成績在NYY每年至少20w = =
作者: PlayStation3 (超級喜歡于小文)   2012-04-03 13:19:00
所以簽約本來就是不一樣狀況阿?有問題嘛..
作者: jardon (綜合水果汁武士)   2012-04-03 13:19:00
我沒記錯1WAR=4M吧 只有去年的5.2WAR(FG)達成 無論如何
作者: jardon (綜合水果汁武士)   2012-04-03 13:20:00
他都夠穩定 至於是不是overpay 恩... 反正付錢的是老人
作者: ultratimes   2012-04-03 14:07:00
去費城人,可能連3號都未必有XD
作者: jimmihg (TheKing)   2012-04-03 14:12:00
沒有多少投手去費城人進的了前三號的XD
作者: KevinLiou   2012-04-03 16:10:00
Hamles的確比Cain還值錢一點點 .....
作者: azlbf (上邪!我欲與君相知)   2012-04-03 17:19:00
反正不會比Zito更糟了
作者: rayven (擲筊才是真正雲端運算)   2012-04-04 20:33:00
費城人前三號先發需滿足以下任一條件:1、賽揚 2、長得夠帥

Links booklink

Contact Us: admin [ a t ] ucptt.com