我覺得很有趣的兩篇訪談，可以大致了解當時" Super Mario World"這款作品的發展過
程及當時超任這台遊樂器的願景。因為時間的關係，所以我只大致翻出重點而已，內容
其實沒什麼太艱澀的地方，建議大家可以花時間看一下。
Super Mario World – 1990 Developer Interview
—First, let’s start with a quick self-introduction.
Miyamoto: I was the producer on Super Mario World. How to describe my
role… basically, I stood by and watched closely, for a long time, what
everyone was doing, interjecting various ideas of my own here and there.
Tezuka: I came up with many of the different enemies and gameplay mechanics,
often working late into the night. I also talked through ideas with the
staff, making decisions and helping the game take shape. Occasionally
Miyamoto would pop in and say “nope, that’s not gonna work.” (laughs)
Nakago: I directed the programming side. In consultation with Tezuka, I
supervised everything that was programming-related.
Kondo: From composing, to programming, to sound… I’ve been involved in all
of it, starting from the very first Super Mario Bros.
Konno: I worked on the maps and stage designs together with Katsuya Eguchi,
who couldn’t be here today because he’s on his honeymoon. (laughs)
—How many people were on the Super Mario World staff, in total?
Miyamoto: There were the 5 of us, then Eguchi, one character designer,
and 3 main programmers. So about 10 people all together, I think. Most of
them have worked with us since the original Super Mario Bros.
自我介紹與遊戲製作分工。可惜當時江口勝也去度蜜月了所以沒受訪。
http://shmuplations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/smw02.jpg
The Super Mario World team. L-R: Hideki Konno, Toshihiko
Nakago, Shigeru Miyamoto, Takashi Tezuka, Koji Kondo.
—Would you say that you wield the main authority still, Miyamoto?
Miyamoto: Well, I don’t know. They ignore me sometimes. (laughs) In any
event, more often we debate ideas together as a team, late into the night.
—This is the first Mario game for the new Super Famicom hardware. Were there
any difficulties working with the Super Famicom?
Tezuka: In my case, up to now I had drawn all the character art myself, but
for Super Mario World I was able to give that work to others. In that regard
it was a lot easier.
Miyamoto: That has nothing to do with the Super Famicom. (laughs)
Tezuka: Well then, I would say that being our first time with new hardware,
there were a number of challenges, like the software tools which weren’t
fully developed yet. Mostly just things that go along with starting something
new.
Miyamoto: We no longer had the restrictions on scrolling and the number of
colors that the Famicom had, so it became much easier to depict things. That
was nice. However, before starting Super Mario World we ported Mario 3 to the
Super Famicom as a hardware experiment, and even though the colors and
sprites were more detailed, it was still the same game. It made me realize
that we couldn’t just make the same game again: we had to create something
new. So it was in that context that we talked about how to make the most use
of the new hardware. There was a lot of discussion about it, actually.
Tezuka: Many people at Nintendo who saw Super Mario World being developed
remarked to us, “it doesn’t look all that different from the Famicom games.
” We felt the same way. (laughs)
Miyamoto: That’s true, but just because we found something cool the hardware
could do, something that made us go “whoa!”—if it ruined the balance or
flow of the game, we didn’t want to include it. Also, while Super Mario
World was upgraded to a 4MB cart (SMB3 used 3MB, in comparison), more memory
was needed for the expanded colors, so the memory limitations were actually
more strict this time.
—How about on the programming side?
Nakago: The biggest thing was not having to worry about the hardware
limitations like we did in the Famicom days. One specific example would be
Mario riding Yoshi: we came up with that idea a long time ago, but couldn’t
do it on the Famicom. I’m really happy we finally got to realize that in SMW.
Miyamoto: That paper with the “dinosaur sketch” on it was taped up at my
desk for 5 years!
概略說明開發時所遭遇到的問題和創意的呈現過程。
http://shmuplations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/smw03.jpg
Top: Koji Kondo (composer) and Hideki Konno (map director).
Bottom: Toshihiko Nakago (programming director).
—How about the sound?
Kondo: With the Super Famicom you have to create the sound samples
themselves, so compared with the Famicom, it was 100x more difficult.
—Well, it sounds like you win the “Most Troubles” prize, Kondo. (laughs)
On a different note, how has the way you make a Mario game changed, from
Mario 1 to Mario 4?
Miyamoto: With the first Super Mario Bros. I started out by trying to create
an athletic game where the movement felt instinctively “right.” I was
starting from scratch, so that meant a lot of experimentation. In contrast,
with 3 and now 4, I don’t have to worry about the basic direction of the
Mario games. It’s more about how much polish we can give them, and what kind
of fun new elements we can add.
近藤浩治對遊戲音樂設計的一些看法。
—And the cape would be one of those new things.
Tezuka: The cape controls—where you open the cape and catch the wind, rising
upwards—were a little different at first. We didn’t know if it would feel
right, so as we had done with Excitebike’s controls back in the day, we
solicited a lot of feedback from test players. As we expected, players found
the cape too difficult to control, so we adjusted the way it handles so that
even though Mario’s flying is a little clumsy, the controls feel much more
playable.
這裡提到了斗篷的控制；跟"Excitebike’s"相同，都是經過反覆測試才能逐漸成型。
—It also feels like Super Mario World is much easier than
Super Mario Bros. 3…
Tezuka: We did make some very fine, detailed changes to the difficulty and
the hit detection.
Miyamoto: SMB3 was made for experienced players who had delved deep into the
previous Mario games. In contrast, we aimed to make SMW friendly to beginners
as well, but still exciting for those who played SMB3.
—It sounds like you paid a lot of attention to the difficulty.
Tezuka: Yeah. If one of the playtesters told us “this part is hard”, I
really scrutinized it. I’m not a very good player myself, after all…
(laughs)
難度設定上，希望能吸引到更多的新玩家，但也能讓老玩家感受到前作般的挑戰性。
—Who is the best Mario player out of you all, by the way?
Konno: Of the five of us here, it would be me, but Katsuya Eguchi, who couldn
’t come today, is actually the best. He knows all the courses in his head, it
’s like he can see three screens ahead. (laughs)
In Super Mario World, the dotted-line blocks turned out to be the key to
adjusting the difficulty, and I think it came out really well. If a player
activates all the switches, the game becomes much easier.
Miyamoto: One of the issues with action games is how to make something that
can be enjoyed by all skill levels, from beginners to more advanced players.
One way is to add an “Easy Mode”, but I think the best method is when the
player can adjust the difficulty himself while playing. The dotted-line
blocks fill that role in Super Mario World.
For awhile now, I’ve been wanting to make a game that isn’t simply about
reaching the end of the level—a game where even after you beat the level,
you still want to come back again and explore and experience more of. For
that, making the levels easier is a pre-requisite.
同樣是在說明難度設定的一些細節，然後沒來的江口最會玩這款遊戲w
http://shmuplations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/smw04.jpg
Shigeru Miyamoto (producer) and Takashi Tezuka (director).
—Taking the dotted-line blocks as an example, how do you come up with these
game ideas?
Miyamoto: That was Nakago’s idea, if I recall…?
Nakago: Was that me? Hmm…
Miyamoto: I really don’t know anymore who came up with which idea. Things
get decided by everyone throwing their two cents in: “oh, how about this?”
or “make it do that!” Although people do still claim certain things from
past games, like “hey, that was my idea!” (laughs) As for the dotted-line
blocks, it started with the question of how we could increase the number of
different block types. From there it was simply a lot of experimentation…
—Is it right to say that in game design, everything begins with
experimentation?
Miyamoto: Well, of course there is a lot of discussion and talking before
that. Taking Zelda and Mario as an example though, it’s almost entirely the
same team for both series, and while we’re bouncing ideas off each other you
often hear things like “Oh, that idea would work better for Zelda, I think.”
So maybe you’ll see Link riding a dinosaur next game. (laughs)
Anyway, the idea (and maybe it’s a joke at first) gets taken to the
programmers, and after talking with them and doing some tests, once they can
see a general picture for how the game would work, the staff is assembled and
things go from there.
虛線方塊疑似是中郷俊彦的巧思，後面則是提到一些製作分工和交互創意的運用。
—So right now is everyone working on a new Zelda for the SFC, then…?
Miyamoto: We’re making steady progress, putting the finishing touches on it.
I think it will be done by Children’s Day (May 5th) next year, but don’t
quote me on that. (laughs)
關於當時新薩爾達作品的訊息，以及日本兒童節(こどもの日)是5月5日。
—Finally, I’d like to close by asking what kind of games each of you would
like to make in the future.
Kondo: As the hardware progresses, the quality of music improves, and soon
game music will have to compete on the same level as general music. I want to
take on those new challenges, keeping in mind that game music is music for
video games.
Konno: The million dollar question for me is how to make games deeper, and I
don’t mean just adding more space or memory. Even if we enter an era with
new media that can store 10x the memory, I don’t think the importance of
that question changes.
Tezuka: This was my approach to Mario as well, but I want to make games that
no matter how many times you clear them, you want to keep that game and hold
onto it like a treasure. I want to keep making games with that mindset.
Nakago: Since I may collapse of exhaustion from all the overtime before long
(laughs), I’d like a game I can play while I’m hospitalized. I remember
being completely absorbed in these old simple games like marbles. I could get
lost in them for hours. Any genre and medium are fine, but I’d like there to
be more games like that, I think.
Miyamoto: I want to see console games become a “destination for play” — a
world that kids feel a kind of affection and attachment to, and want to
return to again and again. And how awesome is it that kids have all these
worlds they can visit, all inside a console and game library small enough to
fit in a dresser?
Also, as a parent my eyes have been opened to something new recently. I’ve
noticed that when a parent sees their child reading a book, they think that’
s a good, proper thing. But sitting their children down in front of a TV to
play a video game somehow makes parents feel guilty, even though games are an
active experience. Why is that, I wonder? I’d like to make a game that, when
a Mother sees her child playing it for the first time, she thinks, “Ah,
good! My child is old enough to play video games now!”
Of course, I’ve got these lofty goals on my mind, but my daily reality is
spent hammering out the details of questions like “how many pixels should
Mario jump?” (laughs)
提及一些遊戲內涵上的見解與對未來的展望，
—We’re eagerly awaiting your next wonderful game. Thank you for your
time today!
http://shmuplations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/smw01.jpg
Five game maestros.
下面是近藤浩治的一篇專訪。
Koji Kondo – 1991 Developer Interview
from the Super Mario World official guidebook (Vol.2)
—Please tell us about your musical roots.
Kondo: It all began when I started learning the Electone in my first year of
elementary school. Just learning practice songs on piano seemed boring to me—
I wanted to learn songs and be able to perform them. Looking back on it now
though, I sometimes think it would have been good if I had studied piano back
then.
近藤從小學就在接觸音樂了。
—What are some of your favorite genres/artists?
Kondo: In middle school I liked jazz and fusion. I listened to a lot of Sadao
Watanabe, of course. (interviewer laughs) No, for real! I went to many of his
concerts too. I really idolized him for a time. I learned to play a lot of
his songs on Electone. I was also obsessed with hard rock in middle school.
Many people in my generation fell under its influence.
非常崇拜渡邊貞夫這個日本音樂大師，常去聽他的演奏會及練習他的曲子。
—Are there any albums you’ve been into lately?
Kondo: I like Shang Shang Typhoon. I’ve also been listening to the Gypsy
Kings, and other world music.
對其他音樂作品也如數家珍，並有收藏這些專輯。
—Back in middle school, did you think you’d have a career in music?
Kondo: No, not at all. I just wanted to continue being able to play music as
my hobby. I was in some amateur bands though. When I went to college, I didn’
t pick a music major.
—What did you pursue in college then?
Kondo: I was in the Art Planning Department of the Osaka University of Arts.
You can’t really tell what I studied from the name of that department, but
we studied visual art, literature, music—various fields of the arts,
surveyed broadly.
以前並沒有想把音樂當作志業，純粹只是興趣取向，大學時代則有加入樂團和藝術社團。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK831StQmj0&feature=player_embedded
Saxophonist Sadao Watanabe’s jazzy arranged medley of Super Mario
World music
—Did you join Nintendo as a game programmer?
Kondo: No. When I joined Nintendo, it was the first year they were hiring
dedicated sound staff. I worked on sound from the beginning of my job there.
—What was the first project you worked on at Nintendo?
Kondo: It was versions of the theme songs for Sazae-san and Doraemon,
composed in Family Basic by inputting do-re-mi notes in katakana. I also used
BASIC to program some Seiko Matsuda songs.
—How many sound staff were there like you at Nintendo, at that time?
Kondo: Hmm… about 10, maybe?
加入任天堂之後的第一個作品是海螺小姐與哆啦A夢，並參考某些松田聖子作品來改編。
—That seems really small!
Kondo: Yeah, maybe it was. As a matter of fact, we did always have a ton of
work. Even today it’s like that. Right now I’m working on music for the new
Zelda game for SFC, but as soon as the next game comes along I’ve got to get
started on that right away.
—Could I ask about your process when creating video game sound/music? How do
you begin your work?
Kondo: Basically, I first wait for the game concept and image to be decided
on, and for some actual in-game screenshots to be finished. I then start
thinking about the music based on that. Normally, I try to write the main
theme of the game first. With Super Mario Bros., though, I had a really hard
time finding that theme, and the first thing I finished was actually the
water level theme. I felt a waltz would be the right sound for an underwater
level. That idea came to me in a flash of inspiration, but that’s an
exception for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q_WnWP0lVjY
The Doraemon theme, transcribed from the Family Basic manual.
Although not attributed to Kondo in the manual, it was likely
programmed by him as one of his first assignments at Nintendo,
according to his comments above.
主要是在說他參與遊戲製作的一些過程與想法。
—How did you end up writing Mario’s main theme, then?
Kondo: My first image was of “walking around an open grassy field.” That
got me thinking about how carefree it must feel, and I wrote a relaxed, light
melody to match.
However, when I played it back alongside the actual game, it didn’t match
the speed of the game or its rhythm at all! I tried adding a swing feel to
it, but many people told me this made the melody sound weird, so that was out
too.
After trying this and that, I came up with the idea of a “cha cha cha”
melody, and it all expanded from there.
說明如何構思出瑪莉歐的BGM。
—What instruments have you been composing on recently?
Kondo: Keyboards. But the sounds on the keyboard differ from the sounds the
SFC can play, so as soon as I write a melody I have to take it to the
computer, program it in, and hear how it sounds on the actual Super Famicom
hardware. I don’t write the entire song at once, of course: it’s done in
pieces, taking different lines, melodies, and sounds to the SFC hardware and
hearing it played back there. The song gets completed gradually as I arrange
it. Because of that, I never have any sheet music or anything. If someone
asks me to make sheet music later, I dump a transcript from the song data
itself and use that to figure it out.
—Do you ever ask the other developers for guidance as you’re writing the
music?
Kondo: In the past there was a lot that I didn’t know or understand, so I
would often consult with Miyamoto. Lately, though, it’s rare for me to ask
any questions before I’ve completed something myself first.
說明自己的創作方式，不使用樂譜這一點還滿讓人意外的。
—How long did it take to write the music for Super Mario World?
Kondo: I remember working on it for a year and saying, “damn, I’m still
working on this?” So I think it took about a year and a half in total. Of
course, this was my first time writing music for the Super Famicom, so I was
having to figure out its capabilities and the software tools at the same
time. Nor was I able to focus solely on Super Mario World during that entire
period: I had a lot of other work too.
因為是新平台，所以在為"Super Mario World"編曲時花了不少時間摸索與構思。
—There’s been a real wealth of games released for the Super Famicom now.
Are there any games out there which you particular liked the music for,
that you feel are deserving of the “Kondo Award” ?
Kondo: I really liked the music for Ultraman. The tones were good, and it had
a real nice old, nostalgic atmosphere. Actraiser and Gradius 3 were also
really cool.
喜歡的遊戲音樂作品(可列為"近藤賞"的)包括了超人力霸王、雷莎出擊和宇宙巡航艦3。
—Do you feel like there’s still a lot you don’t know about the Super
Famicom’s sound capabilities?
Kondo: Well, I can usually guess how things will sound as I’m writing for
it, and I dare say that I’m usually right. But I didn’t create the sound
development tools we use, so there’s still a lot I don’t know.
—Do you ever have to explain the way the sound development tools work, for
third party developers?
Kondo: When Nintendo lends those tools to third-party developers, the people
who were involved in creating them go along and explain how to use them. If
there’s something new, or something that we in-house sound guys at Nintendo
don’t understand, we’ll accompany them and listen in.
認為當時的超任還有很多潛力未被開發，並簡述第三方在開發音樂上的一些問題。
http://shmuplations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/smw05.jpg
Where the magic happens: Koji Kondo at his composing
workstation in 1990.
—We’ve come from the Famicom, to the Super Famicom, and now it’s rumoured
that CD-ROMs will be the next media. Is that going to have a big impact on
the way you make game music?
Kondo: Yeah, I think so. In the Famicom era we composed using simple triangle
and square waveforms. Now with the Super Famicom, we can use the sounds we’
ve created on a synthesizer. The number of tracks we can playback
simultaneously has also increased from 3 to 8. With CD-ROMs, we’ll have to
take on the challenge of full sound design. The amount of actual work we do
is going to change.
But in contrast, I think that the closer you get to actual, live sounds like
what you’d find on a real CD, the harder it is to make it sound like “game
music.” Ultimately, you’ll still need to find the sounds that fit that
particular game best, so I don’t think the basics will really change that
much.
提到當時謠傳超任將支援CD後所可能帶來的衝擊(音樂表現上)。
—Finally, I’d like to ask about the new Super Mario World cd release. How
did it feel to hear Sadao Watanabe’s arranged version?
Kondo: It was great! I was a fan before this, of course. I met Watanabe at
the studio during the mixdown, and it was a very moving experience for me.
When I walked into the studio I heard Watanabe’s remix of the title theme
playing back over the speakers, and it sounded so different to me, I was
like, “whose song is this?” (laughs)
—The second disc contains versions of the BGM with the sound effects playing
over them. This is the first time you’ve done something like that, isn’t it?
Kondo: I was really uneasy about that decision at first. But I think hardcore
fans don’t want only arranged versions; they want the original sounds. Once
we put it together and listened back, I thought it came out really nice.
(laughs) The sound effects sound like they’ve been added randomly.
—Did you talk with Koichi Sugiyama (the producer) and Sadao Watanabe much
while you were in the studio?
Kondo: No, not that much… I was kind of awestruck by the whole experience,
to be honest.
—Is there something you’d like to say to them in this interview?
Kondo: I’d ask them, what should I study next? Please give me your guidance!
—Wow, that seems very humble of you.
Kondo: Watanabe released a book awhile back called Jazz Study. I bought it,
but I’m yet to read and study it. I’m planning to take a serious look at it
soon though. And when I met Koichi Sugiyama, he gave me some advice. He said
that sheet music allows you to see the whole scope of your composition at
once, and that I should try writing out my music. I feel like there’s still
so much I have to learn as a musician!
對當時CD混音的部分作了新嘗試，而椙山浩一與渡邊貞夫這兩位大師真的影響他很深。
—Well, we look forward to more wonderful game music from you. Thank you for
your time today!
http://shmuplations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/smw06.jpg
Upper left: Koji Kondo at the workstation used to input song
data to the test SFC hardware. Bottom: Koichi Sugiyama, Koji
Kondo, and Sadao Watanabe in the studio. Right: Sax Mario!
來源 http://shmuplations.com/supermarioworld/